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The In-itself and Desire (Read 5748 times)
Paul Cavezza
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The In-itself and Desire
10/03/03 at 05:56:30
 
These topics relation confuse me, perhaps one of you can help.  
 
The in itself is that which is. Objective fact, for example our past. Are things like the effect of the laws of physics, or the fact that we live on earth with other people, considered the same as this?  
 
Does our past, external phenomena and stimuli, and the constraints of our body and earthly life all fit under the one banner of facticity or in-itself? Is facticity completely defined by the in-itself? For example, the facticity of the for-itself is that it has no choice but to be the base of existence and essence...  
 
Secondly; does desire (i.e. what JPS calls motive) fit under the in-itself? if not, where does it fit?  
 
looking forward to your thoughts and help,  
 
paul
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JPSartre
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Hiya!

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Re: The In-itself and Desire
Reply #1 - 10/04/03 at 07:59:01
 
To rephrase your statement:  
1 What is he relationship between physical and stimuli? Which is different from  
2 Relationship between physical self and consciousness.
 
To understand the first concept, one must differentiate the second concept. The second concept is broader than the first one. The physical aspect is intrinsic nature of any living thing. The fact that the body needs nourishment and fulfills its desires does not mean that the living thing is "existing". Plants have needs. For example, if the sunlight does not reach them, the plants will bend its shape towards the sun.  
 
A conscious person is aware of its needs and desires but will be driven by rational thinking beyond mere desire to satisfy ones need. This rational person, not necessarily existentialist, is what is called a "society-aware individual" who will forgo physical pleasures or even choose death.  
 
So what is the relationship between the desire and physical aspect? Desire looks like something above physical needs but at the end, they are the same. The dog in heat has desire. The fact that human has sophisticated desire for fame, glory, does not remove the fact that at the end they are driven by primary needs.  
 
Note: Lets say that somebody has the desire to be conscious. Is this part of primary needs? Yes, desire or physical aspect is just triggering our mental capacity to go beyond to a rational person, but at the end desire cannot surpass one’s primary function. On the other hand a rational individual can suppress primary needs of desire.
 8)
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Paul Cavezza
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Re: The In-itself and Desire
Reply #2 - 10/04/03 at 23:34:45
 
right. But what i am really confused about is: UNDER WHAT BANNER DOES SARTRE PLACE DESIRE?
 
1.) Is desire part of the in-itself?
2.) Is the past part of the in-itself?
3.) Are physical drives, and the constraints of humanity part of the in-itself?  
 
I.E. are motives, the past, physical drive and constraint (being human, and living on earth with other humans) all put under the banner of "in-itself" or do some of these come under:
 
being-in-the-world
or
being-of-the-world
 
thanks again!
paul
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JPSartre
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Hiya!

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Re: The In-itself and Desire
Reply #3 - 10/07/03 at 08:06:08
 
Trying to go back in memory... Nausea, Being and Nothingness, No exit etc... I can't remember anything explicit that Sartre might have said regarding this.
 
However, my interpretation of existentialism is that.
 
1) Desire is not part of In-Itself (if I understood the in-itself to be the essense). The fact that Desire can trigger us to go beyond our primary needs does not necessarily mean that a tool can be considered part of essense.  
 
2) Past and experience seem to imply that it is part of essense. However, in Being and Nothingness, Sartre made it explicit that when we are dead, the only reason we exist is through consciouness of others. (which i don't agree) in this case, consciouness precedes experience. Consciouness of others precedes the experience of oneself. Sartre's experience does not have significance at this point since he is not aware of those thoughts. The fact that we are at a website that talks about Sartre and we are discussing Sartre is the only mechanism that makes him alive. Sartre's experience is only a mechanism for other's to keep him in "essense". Personally, I challenge this concept.
 
3) Physical limitation... actually never thought of this. I just assumed that it is part of our primary aspect. but yes, why do we have limitations?.... assuming that there is God and Angels. We could have been an Angel or even something more than mere human. So at least for the conscious time on this earth, our physical limitations are part of our essense.
 
 
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ferdi memeli
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Re: The In-itself and Desire
Reply #4 - 03/11/04 at 11:14:50
 
It's good to see so many people interested in Sartre. If I may help in your discussion I would have this to say. The essence in Sartre should not be confused with the in-itself. Essence is truth, while the in-itself is substance, substantiality. Desire is part of a lacking for-itself, i.e. part of an ek-sistence which as finite is never complete. Past is not part of the in-itself neither. Though past comes to us as a substance, we carry it and project it into our ek-sistence, i.e. our past is determined by our future. The same is valid for physical drives and physical limitations. We carry our physical nature, not just like an animal or a plant, we are but only to a certain degree determined by it, and we determine our physical limitations in our turn, we go beyond them, we live our handicaps and our need, we overcome them.
 
I hope I was helpful.
 
Ferdi
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